Vitamins and EVs

[innerthunder]

With the item rework being actively discussed, I wanted to bring more attention to vitamins since imo their current implementation isn't thought out very well. This is how they currently function, according to PokeRogue's wiki:

Vitamins increase the holder's base stat by 10%. A Pokémon can only use as many Vitamins as they have IVs in each individual stat. Vitamins can't be transferred between Pokémon.

The main problems I see with this implementation are

• A stackable 10% boost is probably too powerful in a world where item slots are restricted, and it detracts from the impact of more specialized items
• The stack limit at its highest is too generous. It basically never comes into play in non-Endless modes, and it enables funneling into a single Pokemon when we've already made several design decisions discouraging that.
• The stack limit being tied to meta-progression seems unnecessary, even if it doesn't come into play often.

To fix these issues, I think we should reimplement vitamins to incorporate Effort Values. This would have several benefits:

• EVs provide a flat increase to stats, so vitamins would become less relevant as the player's Pokemon reach higher levels. This means that late game team building becomes less about incremental stat boosts and more about team specialization and synergy
• Vitamins on a single Pokemon would cap out faster, so the Player has to be more deliberate about where they are allocated
• Vitamins' stack limits are the same for all Pokemon, so early non-starter Pokemon may become more viable

This also opens up design space for other EV-related items, e.g.

• Power Bracer (Held Item) - Common - Increases the holder's Attack by X EVs when they participate in a battle

More ideas/thoughts are welcome!

[Snailman11]

Having Battles scaled to consider Vitamins might make it much harder to modify your team when late in a run.

In Classic, the strongest vitamin is probably Carbos.

In Mainline, the Player has some choice over which EVs they can choose to apply to their Pokemon, and even there, they aren't executed very well. (you can max out EVs extremely early on)

An Item that allows the Player to choose which EVs to gain as they defeat Pokemon with a Pokemon could be a good idea, as that would be a reliable way to power up Pokemon.

I think this really depends on how much stat you get per EV and the EV Cap for each Stat.

[DayKev]

EVs provide a flat increase to stats

The stat increase from EVs is scaled by level; a level 1 Pokémon with 252 speed EVs is not going to get +63 in its speed stat like a level 100 Pokémon will.

Implementing the EV system from mainline is fine, though I think it should be more controlled.
In mainline every Pokémon has a defined type and amount of EV it gives; for example, defeating a Charizard would give you +3 SpAtk EVs in Scarlet/Violet. I think we should do something different than that (not sure exactly what yet).

[Tempo-anon]

Incorporating a mainline approach of EV gains will end up with all your Pokemon having unoptimized EV spreads unless we want to forgo the 510 EV cap. I'd suggest either expanding the EV cap to be 252 for each stat, or having EVs only be gained through vitamins.

I like the idea of making vitamins give EVs because then it makes picking it as a reward feel meaningful in that it provides a permanent stat gain, a common roguelike mechanic. Pokerogue also does this with vitamins but the gains there (+10%, up to a maximum of 31 in each stat) produces too much variance (for reference type boosting items boost damage by 10%)

[innerthunder]

I think not having natural EV gain would be better since the 510 EV limit is good for incentivizing minmaxing. Vitamin drops on their own might be a bit too slow and inconsistent at scaling up EV, though, so I'd suggest

• Bumping up the EV yield from vitamins compared to mainline (10 -> 25-ish? Meaning 10 of one vitamin to reach the cap)
• Adding the "Power" items for passive EV gain for their respective stat

[DayKev]

I think they should give a multiple of 4 (since it's 4 EVs -> 1 stat at level 100).

[Tempo-anon]

I would be ok with something like that. For reference, in the mainline games vitamins give +10EVs but no longer work after 100 so they effectively have a cap of 10.

Also for reference, 252 EVs is +56/63/69 raw stats at level 100. For a base stat of 100 with an IV of 15 (an average baseline of 220), that represents around a +29% increase, so we should consider how many item rewards is equivalent to around a +30% boost

[Snailman11]

in the mainline games vitamins give +10EVs but no longer work after 100 so they effectively have a cap of 10.
BDSP removed this Cap, not sure about sv

Please keep in mind the randomness of Pokemon the Player encounters. In the main series, you're worried about EV pollution not allowing you to maximize EVs in preferential stats. Pokemon randomness might also affect the reliability of training the stat you want to.

I could potentially see natural gain (through specific held item(s)) and vitamins working together under a new system for EVs, that circumvents pollution, addresses the randomness of encounters, and provides some form of consistency.